Exile XII Suspicions

[Kate (Damon)]

Hopefully this will start the ball rolling on a productive discussion regarding this upcoming Exile's options. We really can't take the chance in getting it wrong this time since there'll only be 1 more attempt after this with only 2 Citizens left to try and win the game. We've got to analyze, discuss and go over every inch of detail, suspicion, evidence and defense.

My top 2 Suspicions: Leon & Zander.

At the moment Leon is my top suspect with Zander being a close and suspicious second. Leon has been topping my suspect list for some time and even more after Faizah was voted out. The biggest thing with Leon is that everytime he appears he promises us something but never delivers. Then there's Zander. Part of me believes that this last Spy is either really inocuous (Leon) or super sneaky (Zander). Zander has really gotten no press until more recently. He's been off of most people's radars. Never recieved a vote. And much more.

I have made several notes in my Journal about these 2 gentlemen:

Notes


A general note about defenses: I don't care what kind of crap you pull from your logs. You can alter those things with ease, any uneducated person has that ability. I haven't paid much attention to shared convesrations at all this game unless accompanied by some analysis and commentary. TL;DR.

Leon:

(+) Throws Faizah under the Bus to protect himself. Could be a Spyish move or could just be a true Cit. I'm more inclined to think that these 2 went after reach other for a reason - to try and prove themselves to be the last Spy standing.
(+) Faizah could have voted Leon in IX-1 but chose to vote Singe instead, all by herself. (Singe, "Faizah+Leon")
(+) Leon gave his investigation points to Gordy, as did Faizah and Angelica, in their attempt to manipulate Gordy. (Singe, "Faizah+Leon", Reply #4)
(+) Faizah's oops moment of replying straight to the Faizah+Leon thread instead of any others. This is a bit more circumstantial but it matters.
(+) Leon's reaction to Singe's 'fake' investigation
(+) Leon's continued and repeated promises to 'start doin some work' but never coming up with more than a simple defense.

Zander:


(+) Overlooked Final Words of Ralph, where he points out Zander as a potential Spy
(+) Zander's close proximity to Candy has sat him in a good position to play the trusted role.
(+) There's not enough information to gather against him. When you think about his posts as a collective nothing stands out except for the Masaki catch (who was a Traditionalist).
(+) "Furthermore why had Zander suddenly let up on Masaki now that Cain is gone and another Exile is on the way? He was so sure in VIII but isn't addressing it in IX?" (Observation Thread, Nov 14)

I also did a post analysis for their last 25 posts:

ZANDER
Zander's last posts (most recent first):
1. Scheduling
2. XI Questions
3. Fluff
4. Fluff
5. Fluff
6. Fluff
7. Reply: Hannah Defense; referring to her evidence as circumstantial, lists example.
8. Fluff
9. Fluff
10. Reply: Faizah+Hannah; evidence against Hannah in form of a PM authored by Zander.
11. Reply: Only 28...; mentions Damon+Faizah being left off possible suspect list.
12. Scheduling
13. Fluff
14. Memories VII
15. Memories VIII
16. Memories III
17. Memories V
18. X Questions
19. Reply: Faizah+Leon; argueing against Damon's statement that Singe deserves all the credit.
20. Reply: Avoid hijacking..; advocating for peace on the board instead of petty arguements.
21. Reply: Faizah+Zander; notes that he pre-voted Faizah, that he didn't wait for the 'momentum'.
22. Reply: Penalties for..; explains why his alias was revealed.
23. Reply: Unsure - Pooling..; questions why Faizah never posted and asks how everyone voted in the poll.
24. Fluff
25. Fluff

LEON
Leon's last posts (most recent first):
1. Scheduling
2. Fluff
3. Reply: Adelaide's Dreams; confirms that he could only pick confessionals.
4. XI Questions
5. Fluff
6. Fluff
7. Memories V
8. Memories I
9. Memories IX
10. Fluff
11. Reply: Memories IX; questioning a statement made by Singe.
12. Reply: Faizah+Leon; defence, claims he never talked to the Orthos, Masaki a lot, Naomi/Bev a bit, Emma never.
13. Reply: Faizah+Leon; fluff declaration of not being a spy.
14. Reply: Faizah+Leon; defence reply concerning Singe post about questioning immunity.
15. Reply: Faizah+Leon; defence fluff, declares he never tried to talk to Angelica and he has no control over what she said about him.
16. Reply: Faizah+Leon; clarifies why he gave his points to Gordy.
17. Reply: Leon Defense...; lists each of his Spy suspicions for all the rounds until present (at time of the post), questions why he would work against a fellow Spy.
19. Reply: Leon Defense..; fluff declaration that he plans to prove he's not a Spy.
20. Reply: And It All...; fluff comment on why he hadn't posted, clarifies suspicious vs. campaigning.
21. Fluff
22. Reply: And It All..; analysis of the remaining Spy candidates.
23. X Questions
24. Scheduling
25. Fluff


Other information:
- As best we can determine Zander was on Adelaide's dream list and has been raised to suspicion by that amongst other things.


I know that other people have points to make against these 2 and likely myself as well. Let's air everything and try to figure things out!

[Candy]

My only suspects are Zander and Damon. I'd bet anything one of those 2 is our last spy. So apologies to the one I'm falsely accusing, cause you can't both be spies.



----------------------------
Damon first:


Every time I think about Damon it's like Bunni's trial all over again. Either you'll vote innocent because you think the evidence is inconclusive or you'll vote guilty because even though you don't know you don't want to chance it.


Review the Let's Exile Damon thread:
spies4.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=theburg88ajv&action=display&thread=1194942266

Also review the Damon-Faizah fight in the Don't Drink the Kool-Aid thread:
spies4.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=theburg88ajv&action=display&thread=1194951815

Finally look at the Damon:Analyzed thread:
spies4.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=theburg88ajv&action=display&thread=1193430159


Damon has been downright inactive. This is from episode 5, around October 29 or 30:

spies4Candy: Any sign of Damon or Johan or Madison today?
spies4Masaki: Hmm I don't recall seeing them on
spies4Masaki: Let me see though if they did log on
spies4Masaki: damon not on since the 22nd
spies4Masaki: Johan was on earlier
spies4Masaki: Madison is on but away
spies4Candy: A whole week?
spies4Candy: Are you serious?
spies4Candy: That's insane



Naomi suspected Damon and her opinion is still valid even if she's a spy - remember she was looking for Orthodoxy spies. She said she analyzed Damon's posts word for word and it told her there was nothing of substance and that he has different motives. Most of her points are in her thread on Damon.

spies4Naomi: so that's what I'm saying. he posts those generalities because he wants to say, "hey I posted lots, I'm not a lurker." when he is lurking because he doesn't take a side at all
spies4Naomi: he just stands on the sidelines
spies4Naomi: waiting for us to kill each other off

He's a lurker - he's around but not saying anything. He gets his 2 convos, he votes, but he doesn't post or have convos.



My Faizah and Angelica convos indicate he could go either way.

Angelica told Gordy to vote for Damon, but then said she could get Damon to vote for me.


Faizah said she suspected Damon and was willing to consider what Naomi was saying:

spies4Faizah: I swear it NEEDS to be Naomi or Madison.
spies4Faizah: But Gordy and I have been talking, and Damon/Johan are also suspects to me
spies4Faizah: But I suspect Naomi/Madison way more


spies4Faizah: just in the past hour I have thought Damon, Naomi, Zander, and Bev were all spies
spies4Faizah: Its so weird how you can almost make a case against anyone.
spies4Candy: You really can
spies4Candy: I don't think Damon and Bev are spies together
spies4Candy: His first day in the game and he votes her
spies4Candy: And fights with her
spies4Candy: That's a little too much for day 1
spies4Candy: Naomi thinks Damon's a spy
spies4Candy: And her opinion is still valid whether she's a spy or a citizen
spies4Faizah: yea
spies4Faizah: well the thing with this time is even if a spy is found out, they could still be telling the truth to try and get out another spy
spies4Faizah: Thats a good dynamic for US
spies4Faizah: so lets say Naomi goes tomorrow and is a spy, somehow she knows or has a pretty good idea Damon is an opposing spy, and is STILL trying to get him out
spies4Faizah: It really helps us
spies4Candy: Exactly


Something that works in his favor is his vote from episode V - the Bev v Naomi exile. During episodes IV & V Faizah tried to plant "Bev's a spy" suspicions in my head but when it came time to vote she went for the spy she was sure of - Naomi. After that she was still hardcore "I know Naomi's a spy and we have to get her out". Damon never mentioned Naomi during exile V or did the "Am I more certain of Bev than I am of Naomi" thing.

spies4Damon: Upcoming Exile and the tough decision.
spies4Candy: It's not tough
spies4Candy: She's LYING
spies4Candy: And EVERYONE'S buying it
spies4Damon: And if you read anything on the board you'd also know that I'm voting for her.
spies4Candy: Good
spies4Candy: One less reason to bang myhead against a wall
spies4Damon: Its tough for me because her change in Diva attitude has actually made me respect her that much more. That's where the difficulty is.


2 different takes on whether Damon was replaced as a spy or citizen:

spies4Beverly: AS MUCH AS HE IS A PIECE OF SHIT
spies4Beverly: DAMON IS PROBABLY A CITIZEN..
spies4Candy: You think so?
spies4Beverly: Y ELSE WUD THE REAL DAMON QUIT
spies4Beverly: AND NOT BE "INTO IT" IF HE WAS A SPY


spies4Singe: demon's one who i think could be a spy
spies4Singe: lol demon
spies4Candy: Freudian slip
spies4Singe: totally
spies4Singe: i think he may have been pressured by his team
spies4Singe: to beg to be replaced
spies4Singe: if he was considering bailing
spies4Candy: I didn't think of that
spies4Singe: "DUDE UR TOO QUIET UR TOTALLY GONNA FUCK US OVER"
spies4Candy: And that's why there was a question with Damon, not Kiyoshi
spies4Singe: rightr
spies4Singe: so he felt guilty and asked for replacement
spies4Singe: it's almost enough to make me want to vote him


The imprisonments don't indicate he's a spy. There's a reason behind every imprisonment even if the reason is "it's random, meant to throw people off" Damon only talked to a handful of people like Adelaide and Singe. The Orthodoxy imprisoned both of them. Singe was imprisoned over me, which also seems like a stupid move for Damon. (WIFOM)


From Singe's thread:

Damon
++ang pushed him as a good exile
+decent proportional suspicions of me
- I didnt want to look vindictive so i voted jeremiah" (concerned with impressions)
--shows up only when attacked, not playing offense
-fakeish fights with bev
+naomi targeted damon
+ proud of his push on bev D2
-- replaced, whereas kiyoshi wasn't

[Candy]

Zander next

He's my top pick right now. Here's everything I have on him up through episode VII. Use it to figure out if he's the last spy or not.


THIS IS LONG. DEAL WITH IT.


The Orthodoxy spies knew Naomi was a spy. Faizah and Zander were on board the "exile Naomi" train the moment Angelica announced it.

spies4Candy: Angelica's gone
spies4Candy: What next?
spies4Faizah: Well.....I really really really think she was tellin' the truth bout Naomi
spies4Faizah: She had to know in her head no one would keep her...but STILL wanted Naomi gone
spies4Faizah: so I personally think its a spy war
spies4Faizah: Like they hate eachother and is out for blood
spies4Faizah: Plus why would Angelica JUST want us to get rid of her if she wasnt a spy???


(Right after Angelica announced Naomi was a spy)
spies4Zander: I just was amused that Naomi made a whole thread about why she needed to defend herself when yes, eyes were on her but look at how fickle everything in this game has been. Then she had to edit in more defenses, ultimately...
spies4Zander: winding up saying things to defend herself against things people hadn't even said yet
spies4Zander: To me it seems like she planned ahead on what to say, in some parts... As if she knew she was going to need it
spies4Zander: (Sorry if that's obvious)
spies4Candy: No that was good
spies4Candy: I'm not going to knock someone for being defensive though or else I'd be a huge hypocrite
spies4Zander: It's one of the only reasons why I think Angelica might be right about Naomi


Then Zander and Hannah made the "vote Naomi out" alliance and invited Faizah.


The way Faizah said this always struck me as weird:

spies4Faizah: And who sent the PM to you?
spies4Faizah: Zander sent it to me
spies4Candy: Zander
spies4Faizah: So there was obviously an IM between Zander and Hannah
spies4Faizah: where this whole thing started
spies4Faizah: I wish we could see it!
spies4Candy: We should ask
spies4Candy: If he trusts us, he'll tell
spies4Faizah: Yea
spies4Faizah: just ask to PM the convo
spies4Faizah: to the "trusted" people
spies4Faizah: if he doesnt, he is screwed.
spies4Faizah: haha
spies4Candy: HAHA
spies4Faizah: But why would we ask?
spies4Faizah: What should I say?
spies4Faizah: we just wanted to know? lol
spies4Candy: Just say what you mean
spies4Faizah: Do me a favor, and send me the original Hannah convo that started all this for our records!
thanks
faiz



Exile 6, before imprisonment:
spies4Candy: Next exile
spies4Zander: I honestly don't know, I don't control what everyone else thinks
spies4Zander: I still suspect Naomi the most. Nothing has cleared her and her lack of vote for Beverly makes sense if they wanted to try to keep Bev around
spies4Zander: If she's not a 100% spy then I officially suck, and okay, but I just don't think she is being honest with anyone, and a lot of her defenses seem more counter-argumentative than actually point-proving


Pretty accurate description of Angelica's plan here:
spies4Candy: MAGIC BOY do you think Naomi's a spy?
spies4Candy: And do you think she'll be imprisoned?
spies4Candy: I need answers people
spies4Zander: I'm leaning more towards yes for her being a spy, but I have no clue if she's going to be Imprisoned or not
spies4Zander: If I was a spy and Angelica was telling the truth i'd probably do it lol
spies4Candy: Elaborate
spies4Zander: That's not clear enough?
spies4Candy: It's boring
spies4Candy: I want juicy details
spies4Zander: If Angelica was telling the truth about Naomi being a spy, then spies and citizens alike should be willing to eliminate her - it's that simple, and it's how you win the game
spies4Zander: But I don't think we can even tell if Angelica is telling the truth, so it's smarter to exile her
spies4Candy: Why announce it?
spies4Zander: To try to save her own ass, probably?
spies4Candy: That was the point of the original post
spies4Candy: She was trying to buy time
spies4Zander: Who even knows if the ability is real, maybe she just wanted to try to save herself or she genuinely thinks Naomi is a spy
spies4Zander: I wish she would tell us more though because if Naomi is imprisoned or exiled and comes up as a spy it could help us out a lot
spies4Candy: What are we missing?
spies4Zander: She said her ability let her see identities or something, so maybe she knows more than she let on? I honestly don't know, especially if she's lying


I told Zander and Mistaki that letting Angelica post that Naomi was a spy was stupid. I said that the other 2 Orthodoxy spies should have pushed for Naomi to be exiled so they could claim credit for her exile and get bonus points with the citizens. Mistaki said that the Orthodoxy spies probably didn't think about that - Faizah sure didn't.

spies4Candy: If it's exile, why bring it out?
spies4Candy: Why not let your cospies lead it and get credit?
spies4Candy: Like Gordy - he finds a spy and he gets tons of credit
spies4Candy: Whoever lead Naomi's exile would've gotten credit too
spies4Candy: That's point 1
spies4Zander: Last ditch effort is all I can think of
spies4Masaki: Candy you're doing a good job explaining
spies4Masaki: Although
spies4Masaki: If Zander said he'd imprison maybe they would think the same way
spies4Masaki: Not everyone is smart
spies4Candy: True
spies4Candy: Harvard's not all that bright
spies4Masaki: haha
spies4Masaki: I didn't mean that in a bad way Z
spies4Masaki: I didn't think along the same lines as Candy either


Until episode 6 trying to get him to talk about spy suspects was REALLY hard. Then something changed which I'll mention later.

spies4Zander: la la la
spies4Zander: In the words of you...
spies4Zander: BORING
spies4Candy: What
spies4Candy: You're boring
spies4Candy: "Look at me I'm MAGIC BOY and I only make safe posts"
spies4Zander: safe posts?
spies4Candy: "Guys let's work together"
spies4Zander: I don't think I've ever said that lol
spies4Zander: Look at you Candy
spies4Zander: "That idea sucks!"
spies4Candy: Never said that
spies4Candy: Why do you SUSPECT?
spies4Candy: Who
spies4Candy: Where and how
spies4Zander: lmao
spies4Zander: Angelica in the Library with the lead pipe?


This is from episode 6. He says he's sure on Naomi, he fully trusts Faizah, and he trusts Singe, Gordy, and me. Keep in mind that at the time I just lead an exile against a Traditionalist spy, and if he was an orthodoxy spy he'd know I wasn't a spy at all. This is also the first “real” conversation we had the whole game so I don't know why he said he completely trusted me. Singe was right – he does overtrust me.

spies4Candy: Who's a citizen
spies4Zander: In my eyes, you Gordy Singe are definite
spies4Zander: I almost fully trust Hannah and Faizah, and I still think Madison is a citizen as well
spies4Candy: Now why is it easier for you to name citizens than spies
spies4Zander: Because there is a lot of fog between my feelings of people I don't talk to a lot and don't trust a lot as opposed to those I do talk with a lot and think seem genuine
(A few moments later)
spies4Zander: Not like I should be saying it, but because I generally do... In his defense, many citizens are afraid to put themselves out there because they don't want to get Imprisoned for seeming to be threats. Ultimately that DOES take away from the game though
spies4Candy: You don't either sometimes
spies4Candy: Do you know how hard it is to get you to talk about suspects?
spies4Zander: No, I don't, but I've tried
spies4Candy: You'll talk about citizens
spies4Candy: But you won't talk about spies
spies4Zander: I think a lot of the time you just have to ask
spies4Zander: spies4Zander (1:51:00 AM): anyway I really suspect Naomi at this point, my eyes are also on Kip, Damon, Adelaide, Johan, Leon, and Bunni
spies4Zander: Masaki just asked me about suspects
spies4Candy: So in other words you suspect people who don't talk
spies4Candy: YOu're terrified to vote out an active player
spies4Candy: LIKE BEVERLY
spies4Candy: Do you not see these weaknesses?
spies4Zander: I DO, but I don't think all spies play the same and I think there is much to learn from those who talk
spies4Zander: I'M NOT SAYING I'M NOT A WEAK PLAYER, JESUS CHRIST
spies4Zander: YOU SAW HOW I PLAYED IN THE MINI-MAFIA GAME, I SUCK
spies4Zander: BUT I'M TRYING SO HARD SO I'M FREAKING SORRY

[Candy]

Zander stuff that doesn't have anything to do with Naomi:

This is the more fun stuff.



OK so let's go back to episode 2.

I get my fatemaking question: Who should the Fatemaker imprison?
Traditionalists: Choose Lise
Orthodoxy: Choose Lloyd

I chose Lise (sorry Lise!) and that meant episode 2 belonged to the Traditionalists and episode 3 would belong to the Orthodoxy.

Episode 3 rolls around and Lloyd is imprisoned surprise surprise

I'm thinking OK why Lloyd. Who has the motive. And I thought about this later – Ralph got Zander in trouble with Lloyd over the “Zander told me Lloyd's identity” crap and Lloyd reacted by calling Ralph a rat and Zander a liar.

spies4Candy: He said he didn't know why any citizen would try to guess his identity
spies4Candy: So question for you - why?
spies4Ralph: why what?
spies4Candy: Why try to find out who's behind each player?
spies4Ralph: no i didnt try to find it out!!! read the post that lloyd put out!!! this is my first time in the spies world i have barely read old games just skimmed season three zander was the one who thought he figured out lloyds identity i found that suspicious and told lloyd about it lloys tooko it as me throgin zander under the bus


spies4Candy: Why did you flip out over Ralph telling Lloyd blah blah blah tried to read it got bored
spies4Zander: Haha, how did you read it?
spies4Candy: It NEVER ENDED
spies4Zander: Anyway I was angry because it was something I told my family, and he begged me to tell him and then he said "Don't worry, you can trust me" so then he ran to Lloyd about it...
spies4Zander: I didn't think it was something that other people should know, but I figured I could at least trust my family with that information
spies4Zander: I don't even know if Lloyd is the only person he told, he might have told others to target Lloyd or something - that's why I'm more worried than anything


OK so there's a motive beyond "Faizah would never imprison a diva" and "Lloyd was a good player". Imprison Lloyd before he could go after Zander.


I went around asking some people why Lloyd was imprisoned. And I got the exact same reply from Faizah and Zander. They gave the same scapegoat name and the same reason for it.

spies4Faizah: Do you think Ralph really imprisoned Lloyd?
spies4Candy: Not sure
spies4Faizah: Like, I am almost convinced he is a spy....but from what group.
spies4Candy: But yeah - group
spies4Candy: Why tell Lloyd that plot if you were going to imprison him?
spies4Candy: Makes no sense
spies4Faizah: I know, seems like a set up


spies4Candy: So why Lloyd?
spies4Zander: It seems like a frame, but who knows. Ralph clearly doesn't seem to be the smartest player


Accuse Ralph, say it was a setup.


Motivation for Angelica & Faizah to vote Ralph in exile 3:

spies4Candy: So you're afraid Ralph's mouth will pick you up extra votes?
spies4Zander: So it makes me a target for Imprisonment AND Exile because he wants to run around and tell people everything I think... And I just can't find motivation behind that I guess
spies4Zander: Just get me eliminated in general I guess


Anyone remember who Faizah and Angelica voted that round? Oh right. Ralph. The guy who got Zander in trouble in the first place. Zander couldn't actually vote for Ralph because they were in the same family but he threw his vote away on Summer and got Madison to do the same.


spies4Singe: give me 6 people who are spyhunting
spies4Singe: it's a challenge
spies4Candy: Mistaki, Naomi, me, Bev, Abrams, Zander
spies4Singe: i'll give you 4 of those
spies4Singe: bev and zander i dunno
spies4Singe: it's all good to save ralph
spies4Singe: but to not have a spy to vote in his place?
spies4Candy: What?
spies4Singe: no i mean who did he push
spies4Singe: as the alternative to ralph
spies4Singe: he made no case
spies4Singe: zander just wrung his hands
spies4Singe: and said "I CANT VOTE RALPH FAMILY ISSUES

[Candy]

Faizah on Zander:


spies4Faizah: Im telling you tho
spies4Candy: Yeah?
spies4Faizah: if it got down to where we thought it was one of those 2
spies4Faizah: I would say Zander over Hannah
spies4Candy: I would too
spies4Faizah: just from our convos we have had
spies4Candy: His votes are too convenient
spies4Candy: I was thinking about this tonight
spies4Faizah: Wouldnt surprise me if he started the whole thing with her instead of other way around
spies4Faizah: and that big post he did today???
spies4Faizah: where he was SO PISSEEEEED RAWWWWR
spies4Candy: Yeah
spies4Faizah: Where before, he hasnt even been posting in the burg
spies4Faizah: This game is so funny
spies4Faizah: just in the past hour I have thought Damon, Naomi, Zander, and Bev were all spies
spies4Faizah: Its so weird how you can almost make a case against anyone.


spies4Faizah: what about the Orthos
spies4Faizah: Angelica
spies4Candy: Angelica
spies4Candy: Mistaki
spies4Faizah: rofl.
spies4Candy: Bunni or Damon
spies4Faizah: See
spies4Candy: I'm not kidding
spies4Faizah: I was thinking Zander.
spies4Candy: Yeah I'm not comfortable with not putting MAGIC BOY in my arrangement
spies4Faizah: Damon maybe....Bunni I really cant see, but thats maybe because I see her as semi inactive (good strategy though)
spies4Candy: Faizah
spies4Candy: Look at the facts not at the personalities
spies4Faizah: Zander only because of this whole secret voting fiasco last time for me
spies4Faizah: Was weird.


(Regarding the vote Naomi alliance Hannah and Zander made)
spies4Faizah: Do you trust Zander alot?
spies4Candy: No
spies4Faizah: Its weird that he sent it to me
spies4Faizah: Because honestly, we NEVER talk
spies4Candy: He said Hannah trusted you
spies4Faizah: I mean......occasionally, but it is never of substance




Zander on me/Fatemaker:

Episode 3: Keep in mind the spies knew the Fatemaker made the schism group
spies4Zander: Were you the one that formed the groups?
spies4Candy: No comment
spies4Candy: I made it through the last imprisonment and I'd like to make it throught the next one too
spies4Zander: Fair enough, I guess...
spies4Candy: I saw your post so I know what you're thinking.
spies4Zander: Honestly I don't think you are the one who made the groups, because if you were, then you probably would have put yourself with more people who are more suspicious than you


His reaction to the Fatemaker critique on Masaki:
spies4Candy: The fatemaker suspects Mistaki
spies4Candy: HAHA
spies4Zander: lol. So this thing actually exists?
spies4Summer: ... looks like it
spies4Zander: I thought it was the Schism Maker?


Episode 7 before imprisonment:
spies4Candy: Remember his obsession with the fatemaker?
spies4Zander: Not surprising after he suddenly helps Cain start a campaign to suspect you
spies4Candy: And how Angelica said that the fatemaker had an investigation?
spies4Zander: So he thinks you're the fatemaker? lol
spies4Candy: He thinks that's how I found Bev out
spies4Candy: Now it's one thing to think that
spies4Zander: Then what the hell would your mystery prize be
spies4Candy: Keep your options open
spies4Candy: It's another thing to actually tell multiple people
spies4Zander: Yeah, there has to be something else going on there
spies4Candy: Yeah
spies4Candy: My mystery prize is what I said it is
spies4Candy: But if he thinks I'm the fatemaker
spies4Candy: And he's a spy
spies4Candy: Well it's the Orthodoxy's turn next isn't it
spies4Candy: Bye bye Candy
spies4Candy: And pin the blame on the people Mistaki told
spies4Zander: I'm confused though, why would you being the fatemaker even make you aware of Bev's identity?
spies4Candy: Because Angelica said the fatemaker got an investigation
spies4Candy: I got an investigation
spies4Candy: Therefore I must be the fatemaker
spies4Zander: oh
spies4Candy: He's fixated on the idea
spies4Zander: so we're still taking her word for gospel truth?
spies4Candy: Yeah - exactly
spies4Candy: But there's one thing about this that bothers me
spies4Candy: Until Angelica said anything, did you know there was a fatemaker?
spies4Zander: No
spies4Candy: Neither did I
spies4Zander: as far as I recall someone said something about schism maker
spies4Zander: that was as much as I knew
spies4Candy: Yeah
spies4Zander: I think Gordy said he was the schism maker or something lol
spies4Zander: just randomly

[Candy]

Other misc stuff on Zander:

PATHETIC attempt as a mafia in the mini-mafia game

The Orthodoxy wanted the Fatemaker to roleblock him in episode 6.

He knew about Johan and Gordy before they were imprisoned.

Gordy said he had investigations and sent me a message before he was imprisoned giving me thumbs up (literally a PM of pictures, HAHA) on Hannah and Zander and I misinterpreted that to mean they were both confirmed citizens. When I told Zander "Gordy says you're a confirmed citizen" there was this REALLY BIG AWKWARD PAUSE and the next thing he said was "urgh"

He ran around asking to be imprisoned after Madison went.

Summer Faizah Zander and Hannah made a plan to protect me from imprisonment in episode 8 - the Orthodoxy turn.

This is from the end of episode 7. The Orthodoxy imprisoned Adelaide a few days later.
spies4Summer: Candy's in huge trouble for this imprisonment
spies4Zander: Agreed
spies4Summer: I've talked about this with Faizah and we have an idea
spies4Summer: But we can't do it without Candy's approval
spies4Summer: And if we do it, we need help
spies4hannah: i cant believe these retarded ppl suspect candy
spies4Summer: There are people saying they want to exile Candy
spies4Zander: Summer I know what you're going to say and it's SO RISKY.
spies4Candy: What's risky?
spies4Candy: What's going on?
spies4Zander: You want us to convince people that Candy might be exiled?
spies4Summer: Not actively
spies4Summer: But along those lines, yes
spies4Zander: This is ONLY going to work if we have numbers...
spies4Candy: WTF
spies4Zander: We need to keep Candy in this game as long as possible
spies4Summer: Agreed
spies4Summer: That's why she has to make it through imprisonment
spies4Summer: And she won't unless she's perceived as a target
spies4Candy: But what if I get exiled?
spies4hannah: but she is already percieved as a target isnt she?
spies4Zander: Only by 3 people
spies4Summer: That's why if the idea is floated around in the next 2 days I don't want to actively post against it


My last convo with Adelaide:
spies4Adelaide: zander is actually not exactly the biggest citizen
spies4Candy: What?
spies4Adelaide: i mean after cain and naomi go
spies4Adelaide: im going to post up my case for him

[Kip]

November 20th

spies4Zander (8:23:31 PM): In order, Damon, Summer, Leon, Faizah
spies4Zander (8:23:46 PM): I
spies4Zander (8:23:55 PM): *I'm not taking my eyes off Singe just yet but he's gone down for me a bit
spies4kip (8:25:51 PM): k
spies4kip (8:25:54 PM): why those four?
spies4kip (8:26:03 PM): as your list is different than mine lol
spies4Zander (8:26:33 PM): In my eyes
spies4Zander (8:26:55 PM): Spies have to be laying low right now in order to make the endgame. They know that the more vocal players are trying to take each other out, it's what they've wanted all game.
spies4kip (8:27:09 PM): yea
spies4Zander (8:27:09 PM): Damon has done nothing
spies4Zander (8:27:13 PM): and yet remains unsuspected
spies4Zander (8:27:32 PM): He's successfully coasting his way by playing stupid and barely playing at all
spies4Zander (8:27:41 PM): Summer is blindly following Candy with whatever it takes
spies4Zander (8:27:54 PM): Someone who does that, quite frankly, has no conviction and there's a good reason for someone in this game to have no conviction
spies4Zander (8:27:56 PM): SPY
spies4Zander (8:28:42 PM): Leon is almost the same as Damon, but he is still trying... Still, clearing him because he was stupid is COMPLETELY idioitc
spies4Zander (8:28:43 PM): *idiotic
spies4Zander (8:29:02 PM): regardless of alignment, nobody at this late in the game should ever consider getting self-votes
spies4kip (8:29:16 PM): yeah
spies4Zander (8:29:16 PM): using that as a way to clear him is, frankly, unintelligent. He didn't intend to either way
spies4kip (8:29:25 PM): agreed
spies4kip (8:29:32 PM): he was just 'late' getting here
spies4Zander (8:29:43 PM): and Faizah basically because she's just as much up Candy's ass as everyone else I think, though it's probably less obvious than it is with Summer
spies4Zander (8:30:08 PM): but I think Faizah is too easy. That's how I felt with Cain and when people tried to exile you... I'm not sure yet though, I have to think on it
spies4kip (8:30:11 PM): err, im not where near candy's ass
spies4kip (8:30:25 PM): anywhere*
spies4Zander (8:30:33 PM): by everyone else I meant Summer lol
spies4kip (8:30:40 PM): lol
spies4Zander (8:30:38 PM): and Hannah

Notice how he lists Faizah on his list, but when it comes to providing a reason for her being a Spy, he suggests that everyone is making the same mistake they did when they suspected Cain. Then he proceeds to provide Hannah's name as an additional suspect. When it came time to vote for Exile X, Zander jumped on the bandwagon saying all his reasons matched everyone else's reasons. He never provided his own reasons, and never once posted anything against Faizah. It seems like he waited until the vote was set to say he agreed with it all along.

[Zander]

Where to begin: Defending myself just makes everyone go "OMG you are defensive" and not defending myself just leaves me open to be bandwagoned...


I guess I'll say something now and clarify as you need later - There's a lot I have to catch up with.


A lot of what Candy says I can't even begin to argue against. Of course I said that - however, a lot of those are excerpts from longer conversations, and a lot of the things I say are somewhat out of context (Example: My "freakout" against her up there, she had been harping on me for about an hour about how much I suck... It was getting old).

As far as being associated with thinking along the same lines as the Orthos (the Faizah thinking Ralph was a setup example), you can see in the conversation Candy prompted Faizah to say it was a setup, and that's how Faizah seemed to be - LIsten to everything you say and just play it back, no opinion. I won't sit here and be like "Yes we had the same thoughts!" when Candy basically wanted Faizah to say it was a setup, and I actually thought it was a setup (And on a sidenote, Candy thought it was a setup too... So how am I blaming Ralph in that conversation excerpt?)


I'm not going to sit here and say "OMG DON'T SUSPECT ME" because that's not how I am. Singe and I had conversations all the time where he would say "It makes you seem suspicious" and I just kept saying "I can't blame you" - but I really have nothing TO defend. You exile me, miss, someone gets imprisoned, and you figure out who the last spy is (or you don't and lose), and win. Or we exile the spy this round and win, and I'd be really happy if I didn't get bandwagoned against and lose this close to the end.


As far as what Kip said, it's interpreting the conversation into what you want to think. I said I was unsure of it, part of me felt uneasy on the choice, and with someone who was my #4 suspect, why would I sit there and be like "Yeah yeah exile bandwagon wooo!" when I've never done that before? I don't play like some other people here...

Beyond that, I didn't put Hannah's name in as a suspect - read what I wrote. I said Summer and Hannah were up Candy's ass and it was obvious. I didn't throw her in as a suspect.

I think I'm allowed to be unsure of what I want to do - especially when that uncertainty about Cain was right and I'm guessing with you was right as well. But the second I list a spy as my #4 suspect and think the exile is Cain-esque, it's suspicious.


I definitely never jumped on a bandwagon - if you remember, (I think you were there) I had a chat with Singe and you guys tried to basically sell me on Faizah. So of course when I ultimately pre-voted for her I had the same reasoning as you - The way you're saying this is as if every exile needs to have your own original reasoning for voting for someone - We certainly didn't do that with Beverly or Angelica or Jeremiah or CAIN, did we? So I get what your point is, but I'm saying it's defunct because you're holding me accountable for the same way that everyone plays this game, but you're using it to call me a spy. Did Damon provide his own reasons for voting Faizah? Did Summer? Did Leon?

Just curious.

Also, Kip boy, I wasn't here the weekend of that exile, I was home for Thanksgiving, so I couldn't post anything. When Singe called me out on it, it was basically after the fact from what I recall, and there was no reason for me to post anything.




I have to go back through my confessionals and see what I thought in regards to Faizah, because I also have a lot of conversation hunting to do and not a lot of time to do it. I planned on doing this a few days ago but because I left I really haven't had much time.

[Kate (Damon)]

In response to the points that Candy made against me:

The threads she brings up are good thin sto read - I was thorough in defending myself in all three.

And while people enjoy labeling me as inactive for the latter part of the game I've really stepped up when needed. You can't say that I haven't been posting a lot becaues it's the same with everyone and I've done my best to appear online during hours that are more suitable for talking to others with.

Naomi suspected Damon and her opinion is still valid even if she's a spy

It's still my belief that Naomi was looking for a scapegoat. When she started suspecting me was when she started coming under fire. She knew she was startin to face some trouble so she wrote up a post that made some sense and tried to divert the attention away from herself by pinning it on me... while I was away none the less.

He's a lurker - he's around but not saying anything. He gets his 2 convos, he votes, but he doesn't post or have convos.

I think it appears this way because from the very start I posted a lot of things that I tought was helpful to faciliatting proper discussion. Things that were getting on my nerves (e.g. lurker vs. inactive, etc.) that make a big difference in understanding strategy or just laziness. After that happened I had a slow round for rounds 4 and 5. It picked up a little around 6 and I did a lot more from 8 until present. I've found that posting actual thoughts, opinions and sharing ideas is better than posting fluff and as such it may now appear that I haven't posted as much as I was capable as.

Angelica told Gordy to vote for Damon, but then said she could get Damon to vote for me.

Not sure what round that was in. If it was 2 or 3 that comes as no surprise. I was brand new having subbed into the game and none of my family knew much about me other than I had a hot temper when it came to Beverly. I told them at the start that I would rely on them as necessary since I didn't know as much as they did. Hannah was best in keeping me informed by Angelica never bothered to talk to me once. She might've taken my message to the family to the extreme, lol.

Also.. if both Faizah and Naomi labeled me as a Spy which group did I work for? It is unlikely that both Spy groups was say I was a Spy because one of them would be outing someone in their own group. Since these observations come from earlier in the game it's unlikely that the groups would throw me under the bus especially when the only person who was making any fuss over me was Naomi, and apparently Faizah (who I was unaware of until Candy shared the conversation snippet).

Damon only talked to a handful of people like Adelaide and Singe. The Orthodoxy imprisoned both of them. Singe was imprisoned over me, which also seems like a stupid move for Damon. (WIFOM)

I don't understand why, if I were an Orthodoxy Spy, I would've Imprisoned 2 people I felt close to. I felt close to Adelaide becaues I was able to talk to her and carry on meaningful game related conversations and the same extends to Singe towards the end. It would've been stupid for me to axe them when I was sharing information back and forth.


I think I addresed all the major points in Candy's post. If there's any more questions or clarification needed please let me know!

[Zander]

damon said:

I don't understand why, if I were an Orthodoxy Spy, I would've Imprisoned 2 people I felt close to. I felt close to Adelaide becaues I was able to talk to her and carry on meaningful game related conversations and the same extends to Singe towards the end. It would've been stupid for me to axe them when I was sharing information back and forth.

Plausible deniability / Psychology.


In other words, "I would never have done this because I enjoy this!" isn't a way to clear yourself from something - it's a good attempt that a lot of spies like to try to do, and sometimes citizens like to do for no reason at all, but it's not solid - you can do anything you want, especially when you're a spy and eliminating someone close to you makes you look innocent.

[Kate (Damon)]

It makes sense but I was trying to explain things honestly from my point of view. People can read whatever they want from it but everyone who's spoken to me throughout the course of the game knows that I generally am honest and upfront. I'm not censoring myself and what I write here in case I say something that could appear as scummy on someone's radar. I'm being true to myself and that's what matters to me.

[Kate (Damon)]

Sorry for the double post but Zander why didn't you return my IM to you this morning?

[Zander]

damon said:

Sorry for the double post but Zander why didn't you return my IM to you this morning?

Sleep.

[Kate (Damon)]

Zander and I got into a heated arguement on AIM just now. Regarding activity and what not. He thinks it's ok to hold people to double standards. But that's not what I'm posting about now. At the end of the discussion this came up:

spies4Zander: Oh it's fine Damon. when you exile me and win the game, you can take a look at my confessional.
Damon: So you're admitting your a Spy.

And then he either logged off or blocked me. I'm not sure which. I'm really looking to see if Zander had any explination of that comment or if someone can pick out the 'real' reasoning behind him saying that to me.

[Zander]

OMG FREUDIAN SLIP.

I said it on purpose, sarcastically. Sure, you won't believe that cause it's convenient for you to not believe it. But sometimes people make jokes and play into other people's ignorance. It's fun!


I also think it's interesting, Damon, that you want to vote for me without really providing reasoning. From what I saw earlier, Leon was your main suspect. Now you change to me when the votes will probably fall that way and it's convenient. And beyond that, you have no case against me, so what Kip claims against me also falls on you (but more so because when have you ever made a case against a spy or really anyone for that matter and posted it or let it known King Active?). You simply said "My gut says you and the "signs" do too". And right when your ass is on the line, you change from your #1 to your "#2" to save yourself.


Figures.


Do me a favor and exile me tonight, and then whichever one of you is the spy can sit back and laugh. Candy was right, she did carry this game on her shoulders - but the problem is that she wasn't always right (in fact a lot of times she was wrong...), but nobody ever took the time to think what if she was - I sure did, and she sure didn't like it.


When whoever gets into the Final 3 does, please do me a favor - Don't think Summer is cleared just because she was close to Candy and Candy trusted her, don't think Damon is cleared because there's no powerful evidence against him (exactly what a good spy would want), don't think Leon is cleared just because I felt like he was a citizen and because of his self votes.

Kip is basically confirmed so whichever one of those 3 it is will probably imprison you.


Have fun!

[Kate (Damon)]

If I changed my votes they wouldn't be going your way or doesn't that make sense to you? I changed my mind after a two hour long discussion with Candy. A person who I nromally couldn't stand actually made sense with all the content she brought up against you. I considered her points and then considered mind and made up my mind that you were the very likely last suspect. She also had a fe wdefensive points against Leon in that discussion that struck me as meaningful.


All I can sense is that after our last conversation you started taking this personally and making mountains out of mole hills. You are so easily panicked and upset over the littlest things. All I said was that you weren't the most active player left, as you declared, and you went batshit on me. Either you're a very unstable Citizen or a Spy that is afraid of what is goin to happen and is s triking out as a last resort tactic.

[Zander]

If I was afraid of what was going to happen, why do I not find a need to defend myself against everything people have against me? When you sit there and call me inactive (No you did not say I wasn't the most active player left, you flat out called me inactive), I sure as hell will flip out on you because I've put far more into this game than you seem to want to notice. And I won't sit here being called inactive by someone who has barely coasted through the entire game like you. And if you getting me to "freak out" because you call me inactive is your strategy to prove my "instability", then that might be the least sensible argument I've heard all game. You don't understand my attachment to the Spies games - Candy did, she saw how upset I get over little things and how I can take things very personally. Madison saw it. Gordy saw it to some extent.

I loved the hell out of Candy. I thought she deserved to win the game. If I was the last spy and I knew I was going I'd probably imprison you just cause I would have thought you didn't deserve to win. That and I wouldn't have had to sit here listening to you call me inactive and accuse me of being a spy for reasons you can't even think of. Good job.