Martha
Martha
Rabbit Catcher
Posts: 310
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Post by Martha on Dec 23, 2007 21:14:33 GMT -5
I think that the current Accusations system penalizes Sam's most loyal players. Real life example: if accusations didn't count, and just one of Martha's votes had been an accusation instead of a "real" vote, Kiyoshi would have been X'd instead of her.
I think it's best to penalize players for giving out their alias, but not for having it discovered. What do you think?
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Kip
Kip
The Spy Catcher ~ Prince Kip
Posts: 196
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Post by Kip on Dec 24, 2007 3:11:26 GMT -5
Agreed. If someone say who they are, they should be penalized, but if someone guesses who you are, you shouldn't be hurt by it. I've said it before as well, Accusation votes are a Spy tool. I showed that in Spies Two.
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Sherri
Sherri
MILF (also featured on Girls Gone Wild 1986!)
Posts: 249
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Post by Sherri on Dec 24, 2007 11:47:54 GMT -5
Hiding behind an identity is hard enough. If one person knows who you are, you are screwed anyway, especially if you have done well with previous games (which is why we have this alias system).
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Johan
Johan
Mofo Catcher?
Posts: 120
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Post by Johan on Dec 24, 2007 16:48:52 GMT -5
Yeah I voted yes just because, but hiding identity should be the absolute number one factor to keep in mind for any returning players; at least for the first few episodes. For people like you, DC, Blake, and me, it's harder because we've been in every game, but that makes it that much more important, because people are probably expecting us to be there and just might be looking for us
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Candy
Candy
MVP! Winner of Spies 4!!!
Posts: 156
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Post by Candy on Dec 25, 2007 16:18:25 GMT -5
I don't get why you're all so afraid of the accusation system. If you stay in character no one should be able to figure out who you are. If you use your identity to save yourself (BEVERLY COUGH FUCK YOU) you deserve accusation votes.
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Kip
Kip
The Spy Catcher ~ Prince Kip
Posts: 196
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Post by Kip on Dec 25, 2007 20:18:28 GMT -5
Once you play more than one Spies game, you'll see where we're coming from.
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Summer
Summer
Cold Catcher (achoo!)
Posts: 262
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Post by Summer on Dec 25, 2007 23:19:32 GMT -5
Returning player here and I think the system is fine how it is.
- I think that if someone tried to look for a player, B, by accusing every (or nearly every) spiesX player of being B, Sam wouldn't allow it to go through.
- I'm not paranoid that I'll be eliminated just because someone's figured out my identity - it didn't happen as Bebe and it didn't happen as Summer.
- The accusation system needs to be in place so players don't coyly give away their identity to gain trust or allies.
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Post by Kate (Damon) on Dec 28, 2007 4:45:58 GMT -5
It's hard to determine what's fair. Because you can say don't penalize unless it's revealed but if someone drops enough hints about who they really are then there are others who can pick up the bread crumbs. And who's to say that the person didn't want that to happen? Maybe looking for an old friend or something? Who knows? Just saying that there needs to be a balance achieved because I'm not a fan of the system but I understnad why it's in place.
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Martha
Martha
Rabbit Catcher
Posts: 310
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Post by Martha on Dec 28, 2007 18:13:32 GMT -5
Totally disagree with DC on this one. Regardless of my unique "personality", consider this: you try changing the timezone of every convo you post to another player, changing your spelling to what is essentially a foreign version of English, and THEN tell me that it's easy to keep your identity hidden. There were more non-American players in Spies 4 than in any previous game, and the simplest thing can trip you up. (Anybody remember "sceptical / skeptical"?)
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Beverly
Beverly
Candy Lost HAHA.
Posts: 195
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Post by Beverly on Dec 28, 2007 21:31:48 GMT -5
DC's opinion doesn't count because when DC plays Spies her #1 priority is to avoid being accused. She tells me all the time how Antonio's exile has traumatized her And I agree that the system should be changed. If you accuse, show (maybe a script from a conversation where they revealed to you) proof of it. Candy, I had to go out of character because then I could actually appear like a helpful citizen from then on and it would have been way too difficult to campaign as Bev. She'd be too overbearing and most people would just get turned off by her arguement to keep her. Plus it was the #1 way for me to show that I was acting because of my role. I'm still waiting for Candy to come out of roleplay and stop being a bitch.
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Summer
Summer
Cold Catcher (achoo!)
Posts: 262
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Post by Summer on Dec 29, 2007 0:42:10 GMT -5
Correction: When I play Spies, my #1 priority is to win
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Post by Kate (Damon) on Dec 29, 2007 5:41:02 GMT -5
Martha - I know the trouble. I fear that if I were to play in another game my time zone and language would become a problem. It's selfish of me to hate the accusations but there are simply people who will stand out regardless of character. Slips happen and it's not fair expect some of us to be uber vigilant to keep from being accused.
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Post by Judge Sam on Dec 29, 2007 15:49:51 GMT -5
How do I determine whether or not a player has given out their alias?
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Zander
Zander
The MISTAKI Catcher
Posts: 451
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Post by Zander on Dec 29, 2007 19:58:23 GMT -5
That's exactly what I was wondering...
Copy/pasting evidence of someone revealing their alias shouldn't allow them to be accused... It should force them to be removed from the game. (Yes, I know I'm... SLIGHTLY... guilty of this form this past game. But I also think that rule needs better wording).
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Martha
Martha
Rabbit Catcher
Posts: 310
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Post by Martha on Dec 29, 2007 20:26:57 GMT -5
How do I determine whether or not a player has given out their alias? You can give players bonuses for accusing someone of giving out their alias for one thing. I've made suggestions in my Loser's Lounge post about the accusation system. If you know someone can, by revealing that you've revealed your alias, both advantage themselves and disadvantage you (and neither should be optional) then it's a HUGE disincentive to give out real aliases.
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Zander
Zander
The MISTAKI Catcher
Posts: 451
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Post by Zander on Dec 29, 2007 20:37:40 GMT -5
I think we're just making the system too complicated by doing stuff like that.
Accusations are a part of the game that many of us don't like. But they're there and I do think they prove their point. Going overboard with validity of an accusation and player bonuses and everything like that are just pointless, IMO. I think the system is fine the way it is, and it gives more people reason to roleplay or really change up their styles from game to game.
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Leon
Leon
Coincidence Catcher
Posts: 65
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Post by Leon on Dec 29, 2007 23:22:47 GMT -5
EDITED, So Martha Wont Maul Me.
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Martha
Martha
Rabbit Catcher
Posts: 310
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Post by Martha on Dec 29, 2007 23:32:01 GMT -5
Ok, I opened this up for discussion, but the fact that absolutely nobody is getting my point here is really, really starting to piss me off. Lemme repeat what I posted above:
"You try changing the timezone of every convo you post to another player, changing your spelling to what is essentially a foreign version of English, and THEN tell me that it's easy to keep your identity hidden."
The next American or Canadian player who points out how easy it is to hide their identity by "changing your style" or roleplaying, do us non-Americas players a favour and DON'T, ok? Three people have said so already. It's not the case for some of us, especially now that I'm not the only non-Americas player in Spies, and the point's been made several times in three different threads. Saying "it's easy to hide your identity" isn't an argument because for some of us it's damn near impossible no matter how good at roleplaying we are. Accept it, move on already, and address the question posed: GIVEN THAT PEOPLE'S IDENTITIES ARE GOING TO BE DISCOVERED ANYWAY, what's the fairest system to ensure that they don't gain any advantage from it?
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Zander
Zander
The MISTAKI Catcher
Posts: 451
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Post by Zander on Dec 30, 2007 23:06:30 GMT -5
Don't be a cock to people so that when they do figure you out in the next game, they don't want you out or refuse to talk to you just because you're you?
Here's what I think the remedy should be. People who accuse like Lloyd did this game (No offense Eli), should not be allowed to have those accusations count.
That is to say:
Adelaide is Minsi Zander is Minsi Cain is Minsi Leon is Minsi Jesus is Minsi
Because then you're just basically trying to get someone a vote at that exile. If you really wanted somebody to be exiled, you basically know that DC or Davd or Trey or lots of people will be playing next game and there's a ridiculously strong chance that if they were up for an exile, doing that could send them packing because it's just giving out randomly designated votes.
Now if you make one accusation on somebody, that's cool. You shouldn't be allowed to like spam accusations. That's my first beef.
As far as the time zones, there's nothing we can really do about it, as much as that sucks. What you can do is try to augment your AIM to change what time zone you are in (I think I've seen it done before) so that it doesn't reflect your location in the world. But now that there are a bunch of people who aren't from the US, I don't understand how you think this is more of a problem. I would think this makes it easier for you to hide...
... And I don't know anybody that knew who you were just because of your timestamps, dude. People generally know aliases because the people behind them are transparent in what they say or how they act, and that's nobody's fault but your own.
I'm hearing your argument but I don't think the system needs to be changed, especially with a growing international cast.
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Martha
Martha
Rabbit Catcher
Posts: 310
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Post by Martha on Dec 31, 2007 1:39:04 GMT -5
... And I don't know anybody that knew who you were just because of your timestamps, dude. People generally know aliases because the people behind them are transparent in what they say or how they act, and that's nobody's fault but your own. Alright, then let's take this as it applies to me personally. OK, first off, there are very few people in any Spies game who are as active as I am. Combine that with the fact that I can rarely be online after about 9:00PM and you have somebody who's ridiculously easy to figure out, no matter what his "personality" is, by anybody who's been in Spies 1, 2 or 3. That's #1. #2 is that a habit that AFAIK is peculiar to me is to try and get people talking in chatrooms, especially early on. I am the frikkin' chatroom king. Should I stop doing this because somebody "might" notice? #3 is the language thing. You yourself were the one who pointed out how "sceptical" was a British spelling. I didn't have a clue that it was spelt differently in America. According to the web, here are well over five hundred spelling differences between American English and the British kind. I could name perhaps ten. That means that there are at least four hundred and ninety words out there that could trip me up if I wasn't aware of the difference and the person I was speaking to was. Which is exactly what happened with "sceptical"/"skeptical". #4 - to the best of my knowledge I'm the only player in the series who's never missed an exile. (Of the other regulars, Blake and Trey have both missed at least one exile, but I don't know if DC has or not. That said, would anybody seriously confuse me with DC?) Should I stop coming to exiles to make it less obvious who I am? #5 - Of all the points above, every single one has been commented on by somebody other than myself as something that might give me away. So forget the timezone thing. I'm not going to use an IM client that doesn't use timestamps (as was suggested to me by DC) because I need them myself, but I can deal with that. I'm more concerned about the fact that to effectively hide who I am from the other veterans, I would need to: - Stop creating chatrooms as much - Be less active - Stop turning up to every exile - Keep an American dictionary by my side - Stay online until late morning, even when I have work the next day. All of a sudden the game doesn't sound like quite as much fun, does it? And it's not just me (although in my case it's complicated by the five hours' difference). You could apply that same reasoning to Blake, Trey, DC, Elias, Ross or several other veterans who've been in two or more Spies games now. And yet those players are really in a minority. Think about how many of the players in Spies 3 and 4 were complete newbs, and you can see why I think there's far too much emphasis on "accusations" and real identities.
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Sherri
Sherri
MILF (also featured on Girls Gone Wild 1986!)
Posts: 249
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Post by Sherri on Dec 31, 2007 12:55:54 GMT -5
Some tricks on timestamps I use:
1. A Match-Word+Case Find-Replace of AM to PM. 2. Find Replace "(*)" with "" to remove the timestamps when I place convos.
Its hard work but I still manage to do it.
As for the language, not many people notice the skeptical/sceptical (I sure was clueless). Not to mention people slip up with wrong spelling usually... or sometimes not... (like Ralph).
Still, in general, the accusation system, for me, still needs a facelift.
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Post by Kate on Dec 31, 2007 15:47:51 GMT -5
As this is a series Accusations are innately biased against all those who have played before. So it starts making it less and less fun, from what I can see, to those who stick out (like Martha). I'm debating even playing in the next one because of time zone, lanugage and other issues. I don't want to sit here and watch every little thing I say and go over everything with a fine tooth comb. It's simply unfair to anyone who's played repeatedly in the series and it's discriminatory to anyone returning who's in an odd time zone, has language issues or any other number of reasons.
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Zander
Zander
The MISTAKI Catcher
Posts: 451
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Post by Zander on Dec 31, 2007 16:48:20 GMT -5
Okay, yes you are very active (Although somehow even though I was on literally all the time and extremely active especially during the first few weeks i managed to not talk to you up until the night of the first exile? Interesting) and I will definitely give you that. But, again, you are over-freaking out. I don't think anybody really notices or cares when people aren't on after a certain hour. I never would actually look to that as an indicator of who somebody is, because there are severeal people who have night jobs or are still in high school and aren't on late. Plus the fact that people aren't always available at the same time every day never fully reveals someone.
This was exactly my point. It's up to you to change your playstyle if you're afraid it will make you obvious. Or have a strong balance between chat and boards and individual IMs like a bunch of other people seem to do. I don't think this reason is worthy of changing the rulesets with accusations, especially when it's just as easy to just let someone else make the chat room if you're that afraid.
Okay, that definitely wasn't me and I remember you making a huge deal about it after the game and I didn't care. I just told you you spelled it wrong, I didn't say it was a British spelling and I had no clue who you even were in the first game I played...
Because tons of people accused you after that mishap.
Wtf? There are a bunch of people who are always at exiles. This reason is totally nonsensical. You can come to an exile or not come to an exile without it being obvious who you are. Since I was pledgemaster this semester there were a bunch of exiles I had to miss but nobody knew who I was just because of that.
Someone seriously thinks that you are given away by your exile attendance? Surely all of your actions all alterable (Without really being too annoying). The language thing I don't think it was 100% giveaway, and beyond that, again, with a growing international cast, it would be less difficult to tell just because of your spelling differences...
Well then next time you complain about the rule and hear a compromise, be more willing to compromise. When I play I use an older version of AIM for my spies name but stay signed onto my normal AIM name on the newer version the whole time. Sometimes to throw people off I am away on one and active on the other, or off on one and on on the other... But that's just a random and rarely used tactic that can help mask your identity.
How is that so impossible? And beyond that, several people had almost all their conversations in chats this season. It doesn't just point to you.
No. That doesn't even make sense.
Again, that doesn't make sense.
I will give you this one but again, growing international cast + people like Ralph who have trouble spelling = less obvious.
Nope, lots of people are only on for certain hours every day. It does not 100% give you away. And none of these combined do.
I just think that you are overreacting and overanalyzing how some people accuse in this game. Only one of those things (the language) would make me possibly consider it was you, and I think that's the only one that really carries weight. Every player has to worry about changing parts of themselves in every game, whether it be a huge use of smilies (Tenchi) or Jack/Masaki's talking patterns, both of which gave them away to me, or being a big explosive bitch like I like to do in the middle of every game... That's all on us, just like it should be on you to not create as many chat rooms to cloak yourself. IYour awesome activity has NOTHING to do with anyone figuring you out, and saying you should be less active to mask yourself is utterly ridiculous. Anyone who pays attention to these things in an effort to accuse you is clearly TRYING to hunt you down and you shouldn't waste your time worrying about it. Figure out your character and the playstyle you want to have, and if that isn't doable, then stick to your normal pattern and deal with accusations like the rest of us.
People choose to accuse. That's all I have to say about that. Some people play with more "honor" than others and don't do it. It's a choice.
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Zander
Zander
The MISTAKI Catcher
Posts: 451
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Post by Zander on Dec 31, 2007 17:47:38 GMT -5
Just to clarify, the stance I'm taking is that the accusations ruleset shouldn't be changed - It should either be kept or completely disbanded. There's no reason to make exceptions or edit the rules to only people who choose to tell their identity to others - that's clearly stated in the rules as reason to be removed from the game.
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Summer
Summer
Cold Catcher (achoo!)
Posts: 262
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Post by Summer on Dec 31, 2007 19:28:14 GMT -5
Yves, babe, you gotta calm down.
If there's someone who:
- Makes up a false role - Sends tons of verbose PMs, - Is really heavily into role-playing in an OBVIOUS way (Tyson = obvious [we were all like "Man, it takes a heck of a role player to type like that all the time"], Gerta = not obvious [it sounded real]) - Changes their mind on who they suspect every 3 minutes -
GUESS WHAT? We're going to know who you are!
You (everyone) need to be proactive about hiding your identity. You've played with me 3 times and you never picked up that I was Summer - because I took steps to disguise it! I varied my language, changed the way I interacted with people, reacted differently to certain situations.
If anything, accusations are added either because the Spies want you out, or citizens already find you suspicious. Preventing either from happening is part of your gameplay.
And if you're that afraid of timestamps, Ross & I have each given you ways to avoid it - Either turn them off altogether, or use text replace to alter them.
Seriously (and this goes to Kate too), this isn't worth freaking out about. The accusation system is fine how it is. It's up to you to play a smart game.
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Post by Kate on Jan 1, 2008 1:07:43 GMT -5
These things are all good and easy for you (Summer + Zander) to say but there are simply some things that are always going to stick out about foreign players in a crowd and those are things we're not going to be able to hide without significant changes and alterations in our behavior that just isn't possible.
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Summer
Summer
Cold Catcher (achoo!)
Posts: 262
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Post by Summer on Jan 1, 2008 5:46:24 GMT -5
Not to interrupt on the pity party, but foreigners don't have extra obstacles to overcome. Not when there are so many.
This time we had, in addition to American:
- Canadians (Lloyd, Beverly) - Dutch (Damon) - South American (Emma) - Asian (Sherri, Kip 1) - South African (Hannah) - British (Martha) - Irish (Adelaide)
Notably, half of all the foreign players in Spies 4 were newbies. And some foreign players' time zones overlap. You can't look at any set of timestamps or spellings and determine aliases.
Not to mention that we had players pretending to be foreign! (like Johan, Masaki, and Lise)
So I'm not giving you any pity points for "foreigners stick out", Kate. And do I even have to mention that nothing from your English indicates that you're foreign? I still am astounded at how American you sound.
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Post by Judge Sam on Jan 1, 2008 13:54:59 GMT -5
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Post by Outraged foreigner on Jan 1, 2008 15:04:21 GMT -5
Sam - don't kid us foreigners, you American Imperialist Capitalist-Lackey Hamburger-Munching Gun-Toting Uneducated Yuppie Scum!
(PS - joking. Obviously. so anybody who's tempted to start flaming me on how I am a racist who uses negative stereotypes of Americans can go throw themselves in the nearest lake.)
One point to Summer though - with the exception of the roleplaying thing (and if you take out the "serial killer" bit which kinda matched Tyson and which I barely mentioned before I was eliminated anyway, Martha's pretty different to anything that I've done before) I played pretty much the exact opposite in every way, including all of those that you mentioned, in Spies 4 to the previous Spies games. It didn't stop me being paranoid about being ID'd simply because of the roleplaying though. And I'm never going to stop roleplaying or encourage others to do it.
As I see it, if there's no roleplaying then the entire game becomes pointless because what's left? Playing a character that I don't care about, trying to win a competition against a group of other characters that I don't care about either? I'd rather have go-kart thieves and horny English aristocrats and bad teenybopper rappers and Harry Potter impersonators, thanks very much!
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Martha the Flamebait
Guest
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Post by Martha the Flamebait on Jan 1, 2008 15:12:02 GMT -5
Oh, and Canada doesn't count as "foreign". Same language, same spellings AFAIK, same timezones mostly (or near enough that nobody's likely to notice the difference)... in Spies terms they're practically the same country anyway.
It's like saying England and Wales are foreign. Technically it's true, but practically it hardly counts.
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