ELIMINATED PLAYERS poll

[Martha]

I'm referring specifically to the "Priest", the Gordy resurrection, and the "losers' letter" in Spies 3. Do you think Sam should put the kibosh on this kind of activity or does it help the game?

[Kip]

Once you're done, you're done. I've always hated Outcast twists in Survivor games, and this is no different. Especially with the theme of these games. Once Exiled or Imprisoned, it's stated that we'll "never see them again." Why have them pop up in a couple days with a note or resurrection? In the past, these things haven't hurt the overall game. It almost costs the Spies the game in Spies Three, and in this game, it didn't really affect anything. Johan's messages were hard to decipher, and Gordy coming back didn't do a whole lot. It did some things, but it didn't end the game in any way, shape, or form.

This in no ways means that the Secret Hideaways should be shut down. I love it. It gives players something to do after they lose, and it keeps interest up.

[Sherri]

I still think that bringing back eliminated players can still be considered a mechanic for Mafia games just because they add a whole new dynamic on how strategies are made. Of course, since "communicating with the dead" are only beneficial to Citizens, what if you make the twist possibly beneficial to Spies as well?

From the three examples you stated -- Priest Messages, Priest Resurrection, Spies 3 Letter -- are all highly biased against Spies. So a little balance may be needed.

The resurrection could've gone better with a no-cardflip twist... How about resurrecting a Spy by mistake...?

I am voting No.

[Johan]

Poor Johan, I'm obligated to vote no since I had so much fun with the role

[Candy]

These twists were fun. Plus, if I had been in the LL I would've been grateful that there was a way I could stay active in the game.

[Summer]

I can definitely appreciate how these twists make it harder for the Spies. Once you're out of the game, things become so much more clear. I think Sam's creative enough to find ways where loser-interference doesn't fuck things up too much - like how Johan never knew if his messages were from Spies or Citizens.

[Martha]

summer said:

I can definitely appreciate how these twists make it harder for the Spies. Once you're out of the game, things become so much more clear. I think Sam's creative enough to find ways where loser-interference doesn't fuck things up too much - like how Johan never knew if his messages were from Spies or Citizens.

I don't usually reply to comments but I will to this one because I think DC's missing my point here.

So what if one of the eliminated citizens - before any spy had been caught - had sent in a message saying: "Faizah is DEFINITELY a spy, she lied about what Martha told her, she also faked a convo with Martha and posted it in the burg"? I know Sam had final edit on what was sent, but don't you think that the very fact that one of the losers could do that would be completely unfair on Faizah?

[Kip]

And it may very well get Faizah eliminated, and what if the player overreacted and Faizah wasn't a Spy at all?

[Martha]

kip said:

And it may very well get Faizah eliminated, and what if the player overreacted and Faizah wasn't a Spy at all?

Well, she was. And I was pretty certain early on - Faizah told all kinds of lies about me suspecting "everybody" that round and posted them in the burg for all to see. There really was very little reason for that except if she was a spy alongside Angelica (otherwise she'd just put emphasis on Angelica instead of making it look as though I was an irrational klutz who accused every single person in turn). Even though I lost faith somewhat when Bev was eliminated (I was so sure that Bev was just a cit being manipulated by Faizah, the real spy, that Bev turning out to be scum shook my confidence a lot) I never stopped suspecting her.

The biggest argument against that, as far as I can see, if that the priest was only one person and he couldn't rally the citizens without a lot of help, which (that early in the game) he really was in no position to get. OTOH, what if GORDY, who'd been resurrected, had come out and told everybody what I'd said about Faizah? It could have sunk her for what I see as a perfectly legitimate spy tactic - based on her reasonable assumption that if she did tell lies about an eliminated player, that player wouldn't then be able to interfere in the game and let everyone know. After all, it didn't matter if I knew she was a spy - I couldn't campaign against her or vote her out.

[Masaki]

I think if something like this is to ever come into play that it should at the very least be hinted at. Martha is right - people came into this game expecting eliminated players to play by the rules of "dead men(and ladies) tell no tales)", and part of that may or may not include faking conversation logs once a player is dead. The fact Gordy came back without any expectation could have done a lot more damage if he had been thinking along those lines.

The Priest did have the balancing factor of uncertainty, however, yet again, if a long streak of Citizen exiles went by, that uncertainty could have been voided.

[Kate (Damon)]

I wasn't a big fan of the resurection twist at all. I thought that Johan's role was somewhat balanced but the resurection only helped the Citizens and I'm of the opinion that dead men tell no tales (to borrow a phrase someone else used). Once Imprisoned or Exiled in Spies it should remain that way. The Secret Hideaway is a good way to keep people involved in the discussion and the game but I think once they go there they stay there. There shouldn't be allowances made for people to re-enter the game. Too much is shared in the Secret Hideaway and once someone's been Imprisoned or Exile their view of the game is altered quite potently.

[Judge Sam]

I thought that Johan's role was somewhat balanced but the resurection only helped the Citizens and I'm of the opinion that dead men tell no tales (to borrow a phrase someone else used)

But it's a Citizen role... it is supposed to give bonuses to Citizens lol. You wouldn't criticize a Cop or a Doc for having a role that "only helped the Citizens." Catching and eliminating Citizens with roles is one of the many jobs of Spies - if they let 3 out of 4 roles survive to the end of the game, of course that gives the Citizens an advantage.


I had never before used the "out of game" resource as a game mechanic before Spies 4 (except for 100 words in Spies 3) so I decided to explore what could be done with it. Some experiments worked, some didn't. There will definitely be less of that sort of thing (if any) in the next game just because I don't like to reuse ideas so quickly.


I definitely agree with the notion that alive players should be able to lie about what they said to dead people and post fake convos with them. That was one drawback of the messages between alive and dead players.

[Kate (Damon)]

Darling - when I said that the role was balanced I was saying that to me Johan's role was fine for the game. The resurection role I simply don't like in Mafia because there are a thousand elements that come back with it and it should have no place in the game. I just think that dead is dead and there is no Necromancer alive capable of reanimating someone as much as Gordy was